| 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. |
 Author
|
Topic: Accidental discharges in the military (Read 2962 times)
|
Tim McCully
Veteran 200+ Member
 Offline
Posts: 237
Pro Patria
|
hey JJ (John) i believe, i remember you buddy, i am sure that you did hear about that because it remained around for a very long time. There was always someone trying to bait me by bringing it up at thier malicious convenience. I did not hear the end of it until i got a new start in Halifax with the Base Chiefs office. No body knew me there, so i was able to show a much more positive side. It was like being born again. As a school boy i was told that i as stupid, i was constantly getting into fights and getting the worst of it. I quit school with my parents consent at 15, with a gr.8 education. Bumed around the streets of TO for a few years thinking about joining the military because i had spent three years in Cadets and three years in the scouts before that. i knew that i was not stupid and thought that the military would help me prove it. Guess what bro, i was right. They made me pissed enough to push myself farther than i ever imagined that i would go. I tried to remuster twice in the Battalion only to be told that i could never do anything but combat arms because of my low level of education. It was the Navy who seen different, and supported my request to become an aircraft tek. (Refinisher, but still...AC tek!) I finished third on my course with an 89.6 average. So i proved it, i am not stupid! only when i wish to be!!  are you planning on the reunion this august brother? I have a double lot with wooded back yard, only an hour from Kingston, if anyone needs to pitch a tent. And since i am a proffessional driver, i will offer to be DD back and forth to Kingston. |
1RCR (82-88) B coy 6pl, (84-85) UNFICYP- BBC coy Tpt, C coy 9pl, E coy Mortars, (88-90) CFB Halifax Base Chief's Staff, CFB Trenton Refinisher Tech.(90-92). UNFICYP,CPSM
|
|
|
jjterrio
Hero Member
Offline
Posts: 30
Pro Patria
|
Well I doubt if I'll make the reunion, the job thing kind of keeps me in St. Thomas, a whole lot of weekends. I have a trailer anyway so ya never know what might happen.
The battalion kind of put me off because of my hearing and education, Ya know the only thing I did not qualify for was firefighter on my entranec exam the bi-lingual thing then, the guy who did my later one got me down to 11, supply being the best/worst I could come up with. He figured I had a minor learning disabilty, busted ankle on a machine course and not knowing how to properly drive a wheel barrel less a grizzly did not help written was fine. The 4.0 at Fanshawe, and then 3.5+ I don't remember kind of tells me I know how ya feel. Some people in the battalion actually road me because I was ordered to rewrite situation reports with real words on some exercises. I never claimed to be intelligent but if something could be done better I usually tried. I remember being so pissed I through a grenade on one ex that the helmet came off the dummy in the trench, the safety nco asked where I learned to through like that, and looked on in awe it was just so far. The sgt and my 2ic did not get along and I was c2 gunner, fun trip up and down hills at petcon. I also was given my 2ics m72's and grenades to use, he had a directional problem with his aim, ha, ha.
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender: 
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
I may take you up on that offer of a campsite, Tim. You mentioned you had decided to pursue this matter? In the spirit of never pass a fault, good for you! Better late then never, particularly considering the severity of the act. I am hoping, however, that someone in authority will take the steps which are so clearly called for and, if possible, keep this in house. Frankly, I don't think that is possible but... Had the person in question any moral courage at all, he would do the right thing. Resign his f'n commission before he disgraces The Regiment any more then he already has.
On to the true scope of this thread....
Charges 'too extreme' in soldier's death, says father
Last Updated: Friday, March 16, 2007 | 7:25 AM CT
CBC News
Family members of a P.E.I. soldier charged in the death of soldier in Afghanistan are lobbying to have those charges dropped.
Master Cpl. Jeffrey Walsh of Regina was fatally shot during a patrol outside Kandahar last August. Master Cpl. Robbie Fraser, who grew up in Cornwall, P.E.I., faces a manslaughter charge and a count of negligent performance of duty in connection with the incident.
"I think those charges are over the top for the military. Too extreme, I guess is what I'm trying to say," the accused's father, Kevin Fraser, told CBC News Friday from his home on the North Shore of P.E.I.
"I think that they're trying to make an example of Robbie. Unfortunately, I don't see how you can make an example out of something that was an accident. Accidents happen. No matter how much you make an example of it an accident's going to happen."
The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service charged Fraser on Monday under the National Defence Act.
Both Fraser and Walsh were based at CFB Shilo in Manitoba. Defence officials have said there are still several other steps to be followed before determining if Fraser should stand trial in Walsh's death.
Kevin Fraser said he will be talking with Malpeque MP Wayne Easter about the situation Friday.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
Tim McCully
Veteran 200+ Member
Offline
Posts: 237
Pro Patria
|
This is really typical of the Military, I don't agree with the charges at all. This man has already been charged with the ultimate worst thing i can think of, accidentally killing his closest friend and brother. The prison he will serve within himself is enough, isn't it? Drop the charges, before this becomes to much for the man to bear and that misfire ends up killing another good soldier.
|
1RCR (82-88) B coy 6pl, (84-85) UNFICYP- BBC coy Tpt, C coy 9pl, E coy Mortars, (88-90) CFB Halifax Base Chief's Staff, CFB Trenton Refinisher Tech.(90-92). UNFICYP,CPSM
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Brydon
Veteran 100+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 191
|
Tim, I’ve been reading your story, and amazed that such events happened, and more frustratingly, were allowed to happen, without someone stepping forward. I’m curious as to where the NCO’s were, or how they did not hear about this.
I’ve seen a lot of stupid, and inappropriate behavior over the years, but your story is very frustrating, and it bothers me that this happened within our regiment. I am ashamed that someone did not step forward at the time, regardless of the fact that an Officer was involved, and doubly so, if any MCpl or above were on scene and obviously failed to stop such demeaning acts.
As you’re aware, there are a lot of decent men within our regiment, and the CF as a whole, and I can unequivocally state that had one man with a spine been there that day, that Officer would have been disciplined. Furthermore, I feel each man present should have been dressed down, for not acting on your behalf, and I hope they all feel ashamed of their lack of action that day.
Life is not always fair, and sometimes we simply need to move forward, and other times we need to deal with events head on; regardless, I wish you success in any course you choose to resolve this issue, whether personally, and/or administratively. Keep us posted.
Keep the faith
Dave
Pro Patria
|
"I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom."
-George Patton
Pro Patria
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Treatment of soldiers' families stirs concern TheStar.com - News - Treatment of soldiers' families stirs concern
March 19, 2007
Bruce Campion-Smith
ottawa bureau
OTTAWA–A defence department watchdog is voicing concerns about the military's treatment of family members of soldiers killed or injured while on duty.
Complaints last week from a grieving father whose son was killed in Afghanistan have highlighted the demands of military ombudsman Yves Côté that the military be "more compassionate, more proactive, more understanding" in its dealings with families.
"The broader treatment of families who have lost loved ones in the course of their duties has certainly been a significant concern for the office for several years now," said Darren Gibb, a spokesperson for Côté.
"Military families, particularly those families who have lost a loved one or whose loved one has been injured, we expect they'll be treated better," Gibb said. "It's just not what it needs to be."
Ben Walsh had harsh words last week for the military police officers who probed his son's death in Afghanistan in August last year, saying the family was kept in the dark while the investigation dragged on.
"I don't like any family being treated like we've been treated ... they certainly have a lot to learn in dealing with the public and grieving families," Walsh said.
A fellow soldier was charged last week with manslaughter in connection with the death of Master Cpl. Jeffrey Walsh of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. But his father has said he was repeatedly stonewalled in attempts to get information about the death.
"I received no information. We weren't kept abreast of the investigation," said Walsh, a retired RCMP officer.
Gibb confirmed Walsh approached the ombudsman's office a couple of months ago seeking help in his dealings with the defence department and the National Investigation Service, a branch of the military police that was probing his son's shooting.
"I can confirm that we provided him with assistance and information in his quest for more information," Gibb said.
In 2005, the ombuds' office issued a report criticizing the defence department for its shabby treatment of the family of Master Cpl. Rick Wheeler, who was killed in a training accident.
At the time, then ombudsman André Marin made 34 recommendations, including 16 aimed at ensuring grieving family members aren't given short shrift. Côté is currently checking the progress made on those recommendations.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tim McCully
Veteran 200+ Member
Offline
Posts: 237
Pro Patria
|
Thanks for the confidence Dave, you are right that little cloud followed me for the entier six years in the Battalion and i had to always put extra effort in full time. After awhile i learned that they thought that i was stupid so that is what i gave them at strategic times of course and only to certain individuals. My rep was on the ground in London two weeks before me, and when they said may i rot in hell, 1RCR was sometimes exactly that for me. But i refused to rot! Anyway i wish to confront Lt.Smith J.D. one day eye to eye, have my say and forget it. Dave do you remember Sgt. Oconnell in Bravo Coy, or Mcpl Seawright?
|
1RCR (82-88) B coy 6pl, (84-85) UNFICYP- BBC coy Tpt, C coy 9pl, E coy Mortars, (88-90) CFB Halifax Base Chief's Staff, CFB Trenton Refinisher Tech.(90-92). UNFICYP,CPSM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Soldier charged in comrade’s death buoyed by support
CanWest News Service
Published: Thursday, March 22, 2007
WINNIPEG — A Manitoba-based soldier charged with manslaughter in the death of a fellow soldier in Afghanistan last August says he’s buoyed by his father’s campaign to have his charges dropped.
In an interview Wednesday with Global News, Master Cpl. Robbie Fraser, 29, said he’s overwhelmed by the support he’s received at home in Cornwall, P.E.I., at Canadian Forces Base Shilo, and even from the widow of Master Cpl. Jeffrey Walsh, 33, killed Aug. 9 during a routine patrol outside Kandahar when a gun went off inside their troop carrier.
Fraser’s father, Kevin, has launched a petition on his son’s behalf, seeking to have the charges of manslaughter and negligent performance of military duty dropped.
The charges were laid March 12 by the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, an independent military police unit.
“I’d like to get the charges overturned on my son, but also, I’d like to get it changed so the military does not treat our soldiers in these situations as common criminals,” said Kevin Fraser, who is hoping to present a copy of the petition to both the prime minister and the defence minister in the coming weeks.
“To me, it means a lot. I appreciate it,” said Robbie Fraser.
“He’s my dad. It’s what he feels is best, all the support I get from him. Not just him. The family, friends, support across Canada does mean a lot.”
Fraser won’t talk about what happened inside the military vehicle.
“It’s very tough. I’m not going to say it’s not tough on me, tough on my family.”
P.E.I. MP Wayne Easter has also taken up Fraser's cause.
In an interview with the Charlottetown Guardian last week, he said charging a soldier in the death of a comrade only makes the tragedy worse and encouraged those who share his concerns to start a petition calling on the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service to drop the charges.
“Why make a tragedy even worse by inflicting greater pain on the family whose son and husband died because they feel for Robbie Fraser and his family, and also why inflict greater pain on the family of Robbie Fraser, who served Canada well?” asked Easter after meeting with Fraser’s family.
Global News, with files from CanWest News Service and the Charlottetown Guardian
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2135
|
It has to be very tough on all concerned and i agree with Frasers dad, dont treat these soldier like criminals.. this was an accident , a horror that took his best buddies life...let us get by the mental idea of a tooth for a tooth.. that was supposedly ended with the crucifixion.. we as, humans are supposed to act with some compassion for all, and this/ these situations are tragic accidents...all others present at the time are ,no doubt feeling some guilt.. ie , what more could they possibly do to prevent thes accidents ?? Maybe there is little that can be done...let us have mercy on those others who are involved in these tragedies..it does no good to crucify those who are already dying inside...ranrad
|
RCAF,CAF, converted RCR?,1RCR 74-77 CD: SSM (Nato);CPSM,;UN-Cyp.; UN- Golan
|
|
|
|
|
marl
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 3
Pro Patria
|
Hi, I was reading peoples comments and agree with them for the most part - I am paticularly disturbed by the charge of manslaughter - just the sound of this word is nasty and I wish the army had not seen fit to use it. I will say however that the army does have to do something to show that it was not acceptable- such as was the case with two young reservist who were involved in an incident where a third reservist died last year at the Halifax Armories. They even at the young age of seventeen had to be disciplined for their actions even though it was ruled an accident and the third party was involved himself. It is the military way, But they should never have used the word manslaughter, as with the young teens they did try but a good lawyer for stalled that charge and they had to go with a lesser charge of disobeying procedures and orders etc. and fines and demotions were given. I truly hope nothing comes of this as well, other than the brass flexing there muscle.
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Soldier supported Faces manslaughter charge in comrade's death By ROSS ROMANIUK, SUN MEDIA Master Cpl. Robbie Fraser is backed by MP Wayne Easter. ( WWW.SUPPORTFRASERBLOGSPOT.COM) The family of a CFB Shilo soldier charged with manslaughter has launched a nationwide effort to clear him of wrongdoing in the apparent accidental shooting death of a fellow member of the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan. Master Cpl. Robbie Fraser's father and older brother, Kevin Fraser and Greg Fraser, respectively, are using a website to gather support for a petition to urge the military to withdraw the manslaughter charge against him. If guilty, a prison sentence could range from four years to life. "It's too severe for the incident. It's tragic, but it was accidental," Kevin Fraser said of the manslaughter charge from his home in Hunter River, P.E.I. "This has the potential to happen to anybody in the military, or anybody even thinking about joining the military." Robbie Fraser was charged in the death of friend Master Cpl. Jeffrey Walsh, who was shot and killed near Kandahar while sitting in the back seat of a G-Wagon on patrol. Yesterday, he told the Winnipeg Sun he appreciates the support he's had from his family, as well as from the Walsh family. "Every bit of support counts and helps at this stressful time," Fraser, 29, said from the home he shares with his wife and three young daughters at the base near Brandon, about 180 km west of Winnipeg. "It makes my life and my family's life a little bit easier. It takes away some of the stress." Encouraged Kevin Fraser said he's encouraged by strong support for the petition in the Maritimes, and by the backing of P.E.I. Liberal MP Wayne Easter, who plans to table it in the House of Commons before the end of next week. "Anybody can go onto that website and download the petition, have it signed and send it to their Member of Parliament and have it sent back to Ottawa," he said. "We're hoping that everyone across Canada will phone their MPs and say this is not right, how we're treating our troops." On the web: www.supportfraser.blogspot.com |
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
JohnBergen
John Bergen
Veteran 100+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 108
Pro Patria
|
I don't understand why the policy in the military has turned to eat your own, these days. Same thing happened with those PPCLI snipers from the beginning of the war. They were hero's as far as the Americans and Brit's were concerned but basically run out of the military by their own brass.
Tim,
I'm sorry to hear what happened to you. I recall some rumblings/rumors/jokes about it when I was in the Battalion.
Unfortunately, alot of that kind of stuff went on. I was the brunt of it, briefly, myself back in 84 or so. The young Mcpl left in charge of us folks who didn't get slotted on TQ4 courses took a dislike to me and started a personal campaign of harrassment against me. Someone must have said something to him because it stopped as fast as it started and he actually tried to make friends with the excuse that it was a show for the younger troops and he knew I could handle it. BS, I say.
I guess he figured it was teh right thing to do. Really, we all dropped the gloves (or teeth) on occasion, but the smoker is more a venue for that kind of thing. Not an advance to contact.
This was one of the two incidents that made me decide to remuster. That said, life was completely different in BHQ than in the rifle companies. Didn't see to much of the culling of the herd there.
Shamefully, I think we all witnessed a good soldier or two get singled out and run out of the ranks.
|
RCR 1982-1987
AE/AVN Tech 1987-1997
|
|
|
JohnBergen
John Bergen
Veteran 100+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 108
Pro Patria
|
I just had a recollection...funny how your mind works.
It was 1983 or 1984 and we were in Pet. I can't recall clearly if it was a summer or winter ex, but I think it was summer, probably my first or second petcon in the Battalion. I was in 1 Platoon, Dukes. We were on a night patrol. I do recall exactly who the WO and LT were, but not who the 'guilty party' was, anyway. We're humping along and one of the troops has an AD. The poop hit the fan and it was very, very clear that the WO and LT intended to crucify the culprit when we RTB.
So, 20 minutes later...bang....another AD. The WO and LT are hopping wanting to know who it was, ready to draw, quarter and maybe drag his dead rotting carcass behind an AVGP as a lesson to all.
One of their favored troops raises his hand (he was a good guy, they just happened to like him, was also my first room mate in the battalion, got out and went back to Ajax or Whitby, something like that, when his time was done). Well, the tune kind of changed when they saw who raised his hand. They didn't want to fry the first AD culprit and their favored son....all was forgiven. BTW, guy fired the second AD on purpose to save the first guys butt.
It was kind of like what McCully was saying.....labeled a screw up and nothing you do is ever right. It's usually the ones who crow so loudly of others mistakes that fear making them on their own and only make the loud noises and show their true bullying nature in hopes that nobody ever notices how truly weak that they are.
|
|
| | | |
Logged
