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Topic: Victoria Cross and the Unknown Soldier. (Read 1659 times)
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Tim McCully
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I see your point sir! Play right into the hands of the politicians. No i would not be less proud of any soldier that received the award in the traditional manner. The whole political attachment to this issue is what everyone has been upset about i beleive, and i think maybe because of what the government has done to our military over the years. It hurts to hear them talk about anything to do with our honours and traditions because we are blinded by suspicion. When i took an early release from the forces, the politics of the day played a major role in my decision to do so. Thank you for the points you raise here Sir, i beleive it is healthy and wise to consider all points of view. Mike has an interesting idea with the asterix thing. Have a good day all, got to go to Winnipeg now. Talk soon, Tim
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1RCR (82-88) B coy 6pl, (84-85) UNFICYP- BBC coy Tpt, C coy 9pl, E coy Mortars, (88-90) CFB Halifax Base Chief's Staff, CFB Trenton Refinisher Tech.(90-92). UNFICYP,CPSM
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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I think the Sin is the fact that the government blew off promises that were made to all three veterans association in Canada when the unknown soldier was repatriated.
I think what is a sin is that this government even came up with such a hokey plan when, as demonstrated by the fact that they did not approach ONE single veterans association, reeks so heavily of political opportunism. Indeed, were it not for a LEAK... What, were the going to come clean moments before Mr harper was called to the podium?
There's no honour in the manner in which the government treated the veterans, none what so ever. No one said well, listen boys, I know the government promised you this but we want to do that, what do you think? No one from the government had the courage to stand up and work with veterans because, clearly, they knew it would not fly and they would be accused of breaking a solemn promise made on behalf of the government at the time. Indeed, considering the magnitude of the award, I would suggest that the government's action DO in fact cheapen the medal and it's purpose.
It is what it is.
If the Harper government was sincere, it would have acted with the transparency they promised during the last election but have yet to deliver. They were aware of the promises that were made during the unknown soldier's repatriation and, accordingly, they purposely IGNORED them and planned this endeavour in the shadows without any participation or consult with those valiant soldiers who they clearly intended on screwing over.
No honour there, brother. Indeed, therein lies the greatest sin.
Of course, there is another element that we, as Royal Canadians, must also consider.
For us it is different. The values as established during Queen Victoria's reign provided the direct foundations of what we are today.... Royal Canadians.
By its very nature, it is OUR duty to ensure the first Canadian made VC is honoured by cherishing the values as dictated by Queen Victoria at the medal's conception. Values that we, as Royal Canadians who have been entrusted to bear her cypher in perpetuity, are sworn to uphold.
Never Pass a Fault.
Queen Victoria, as was her right, set the standard.
I see no reason why we, as Royal Canadians, should settle for any less.
The standards are there in black and white.
The unknown soldier does not conform to those standards and, respectfully sir, there is no exemption for symbolics.
I think the standard should be set by valour and yes, God willing, I hope that it is a member of The Royal Canadian Regiment who EARNS the right to wear Canada's first homegrown Victoria Cross.
The nation deserves no less.
Pro Patria!
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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Tim McCully
Veteran 200+ Member
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Posts: 237
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Very good points Mike, here , here, "Gentleman..The Queen" !!
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1RCR (82-88) B coy 6pl, (84-85) UNFICYP- BBC coy Tpt, C coy 9pl, E coy Mortars, (88-90) CFB Halifax Base Chief's Staff, CFB Trenton Refinisher Tech.(90-92). UNFICYP,CPSM
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george burrows
redpatch43
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2002
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Ccongratulations Mike I have to agree with you on this. The desired preservation and Honour for the Unknownsoldier was set out by Legion H.Q. at the time of Original interment . It is my feeling this should be honoured and left to be the way it is and keep ploiticans out of it. No one can screw up things faster than a group of them , no matter which party threy represent.
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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Respectfully, sir, but I have a healthy suspicion of all political parties when it comes to scoring points off the military's back and attempt to judge each action on it's own merit.
So, instead of speculation on my political preferences of the past (I named my son after Mulroney), I suggest we address the issue at hand.
Which is, after all, THIS governments ploy.
Not the previous one.
It is what it is. The current government, aware of the solemn pledge made to all veterans on the repatriation of the unknown Soldier, willfully ignored the promise.
No honour there.
They planned, secretly, to orchestrate a poiliticial scene that is certain to find favour with a geat deal of Canadians.
No honour there.
Then they planned on rushing out a giving the medal to somebody who did not earn it as per the statutes described by Queen Victoria.
No honour there either, not to those who have earned the right to wear the VC or those who the government would equate to their glory.
I would suggest, sir, considering the government honourless, Machiavellian activities, that I have good reason to be suspect of the government's intentions in this manner and so do you!
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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Regt Adjt
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Sorry, but your anti-government bias has made this a circular argument not worth continuing in this vein.
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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I call it as I see it. You say its bias but I would, sincerely, describe it as profound disappointment.
It is what it is.
Riddled with faults.
Of which I am not prepared to pass.
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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george burrows
redpatch43
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2002
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Sorry this has developed into a SHMOOZ situation. Should never have happened. However my own personal feelings are
that the award, IF DONE, detracts from those like SMOKEY SMITH, PAUL TRIQUET ETC. who won their VC the hard way.
End of Discussion.
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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Your right, George. I'm not good at shmooozing, best if I stand down before I whiz in somebody's cornflakes. 
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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Regt Adjt
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Let us, for a minute, consider the advantages to the proposed presentation of the first Canadian VC to the Unknown Soldier:
The Unknown Soldier represents all of those whose final resting place is lost to us, either because they are unidentified in known graves, or have no known grave. By extension, he also represents every act of valour by any of those soldiers, and could be considered to represent acts of valour and sacrifice by surviving soldiers who did not have the benefit of a surviving witness to document their acts for appropriate reward. The Unknown Soldier is not one man; he is the symbol of a group who sacrificed themselves for our freedoms.
The ceremonial presentation of the VC to the Unknown Soldier acknowledges with our highest honour that one or more of these Unknowns may well have been worthy of this distinction. (It is their honour, not any government’s.)
Such an award very visibly introduces this award to the Canadian public. It makes them aware that Canadian soldiers have always performed acts worthy of its award, and that they are still performing acts of valour on battlefields in defence of Canadian ideals of freedom and democracy. (It is an honour to be a soldier for the right reasons for your country, and that does not depend on the government of the day.)
The presentation, if it occurs, sets the tone for the awareness and recognition by all Canadians that will be due when a serving soldier receives the award. It reinforces to all of us the importance and rarity of the VC.
Presenting it to the Unknown Soldier emphasizes that only a soldier can receive this award. We honour the Unknowns for their sacrifice on our behalf, this reinforces that sense of honour and sacrifice, and reminds us of the possibility that we don’t know how many unknown soldiers may have deserved this or other valour awards.
Once done, the ‘footnote’ would read, “On [date], Queen Elizabeth II ceremonially presented the first minted Canadian VC to that country’s Unknown Soldier.” It will not read “On [date], Prime Minister Stephen Harper used the Queen and the Canadian Unknown Soldier as pawns in his political grandstanding as he, for the promotion of his party, claimed personal achievements in the presentation of the first minted Canadian VC to that country’s Unknown Soldier.” (It’s only political if we choose to make it so with our descriptions of the event.)
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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Respectfully, sir, but the government made this issue political through their secretive actions and their apparent willingness to go back on their word to all three veterans organizations when the Unknown Soldier was repatriated.
To say it is only political only if we choose to make it so, considering the POLITICIANS actions and the complete disregard for the three major veterans organizations they have demonstrated in this matter, defys logic.
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
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Wow, there are so many valid and good points from you all here. I too am still a bit skeptical.. i do wonder ,how would my Grandpa really feel about this . I like to think he would be in favour of a strong recognition for the Uknkown, the lost soldiers... but in reality , this HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE... so i am still up in the air about thism tho somewhat ok with the SYMBOLIC ACT, i too am very skeptical that it is a Politcal Ploy.. partly because it was begun SECRETLY... i wonder if we should not be taking the question of it to the two surviving veterans of WW1? But ,is that TOO much to be asking of them?? What is the answer?? Well, Gents, to me you all have very valid input here.. and maybe further discussion is/ will be beneficial.. again ,i do not know for sure.. i do, think ,we are all entitled to give our opinions, as long as they are respectful.. as they have been, and we must all accept the others opinion, whether we agree or not.. it is ,ithink the basis of democracy and hamanity.. so, what is the answer?? Maybe it is right here on this site , in the words ,thoughts given.. we all need , i think ,to give it more thought.. and rereading my brothers opinions here, does bring new light each tiime.. Is that the answer? Do we need more input and more from other brothers? Maybe we are finding , the best solution by debating it.. YOUR opinions are important.. hope you will keep , thinking and rereading and reentering your thoughts. What do you think? ranrad
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RCAF,CAF, converted RCR?,1RCR 74-77 CD: SSM (Nato);CPSM,;UN-Cyp.; UN- Golan
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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Heres a way to make it non political... bring the kids and leave those who were elected at home.
Harper kids off to Vimy celebrations
TheStar.com - News - Harper kids off to Vimy celebrations
But opposition leaders have not been invited to 90th anniversary of battle
March 31, 2007
Bruce Campion-Smith
ottawa bureau
OTTAWA–When Prime Minister Stephen Harper jets off to France for the 90th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge, he'll be taking his children but leaving opposition leaders behind.
The trip next weekend to the site of the famous battle will be the first foray on the international stage for Ben, 10, and Rachel, 7.
Officials with the Prime Minister's Office would not comment on whether Liberal, NDP or Bloc Québécois leaders had been invited. But spokespersons for Liberal Stéphane Dion and New Democrat Jack Layton confirmed yesterday they had not been invited.
Yesterday, Liberal officials accused Harper of breaking with "parliamentary tradition" by refusing to ask opposition politicians to come along.
Layton was hoping to take part but "Mr. Harper hasn't been in the habit of inviting the other leaders to these sorts of events ... and that is quite unfortunate," said Karl Belanger, his spokesperson.
The tradition is hit and miss.
It took a public relations debacle to convince former prime minister Paul Martin to attend VE-Day celebrations in Holland in 2005 – and have the three opposition leaders tag along.
Martin had cancelled his plans for the trip, citing fears the opposition might topple his minority government. He changed course and invited the three rival leaders after public accusations that political leaders were ignoring Canada's veterans.
Earlier, in 2004, Liberals say Martin invited Harper and Layton to France to mark the 60th anniversary of the D-Day invasion – during a federal election – but both stayed in Ottawa
Before that, prime minister Jean Chrétien took opposition leaders to New York after the terror attacks in 2001.
Senator Norm Atkins's father fought at Vimy, making him one of the few federal politicians with a direct tie to the famed battle. Even he wasn't invited.
"It was something I would have thought that Veterans Affairs or the government would have given special attention to," Atkins said. He will make the trip after arrangements were made for him to attend on behalf of a Senate committee.
On the trip, the Harper children will get to cross paths with the Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh and French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin.
"This event is one that touches the hearts of Canadians. The Harper family is honoured to take part and pay homage to our veterans," Harper aide Carolyn Stewart Olsen said yesterday.
More than 20,000 people are to gather April 9 at the Vimy memorial to recall how Canadians captured the ridge in 1917. A highlight will be the re-dedication of the Vimy memorial after a $20 million restoration.
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmm... that is all i will say..ranrad
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RCAF,CAF, converted RCR?,1RCR 74-77 CD: SSM (Nato);CPSM,;UN-Cyp.; UN- Golan
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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You may find this interesting.... or not. I wonder who's budget that coming out of, specially as reported a couple of months ago the PM/party only reimburses the government the bare minimum. You may recall at the beginning of the season he and junior flew to Toronto on the executive jet instead of waiting for them to come to Ottawa the next night to play there, for example? I have a suggestioon. Offer the *special* menu to the troops on their way to Astan and on the way back and make the politicians fly be hercules...
Serve roast crow on federal jets
The Edmonton Journal
Published: Sunday, March 04, 2007
One doesn't have to be partisan to enjoy watching blowhard politicians occasionally hoisted with their own petard. The latest example is B.C. Conservative MP James Moore, who in 2003 lambasted then prime minister Jean Chretien for his lavish meals while flying on the military's private aircraft.
"Last week, you had Sea King helicopters falling out of the sky, and back home King Jean is tooling around the country eating escargot and Grey Poupon," Moore said sanctimoniously from the opposition benches. "It's outrageous and irresponsible," he added, with little apparent fear he might someday dine on his words.
Fast-forward to 2007; suddenly it is the Conservatives who are tucking in their bibs on government Challengers, and -- surprise! -- Moore's team is not exactly serving Kraft Dinner to keep up the prime minister's strength.
A recent request for proposals asked potential caterers to price three main dishes: filet mignon with sauteed mushrooms, grilled salmon steak with lemon butter, and roast tenderloin of pork with sauteed mushroom sauce. Parisienne potatoes and carrots Vichy are also on the menu, along with Black Forest cake, apple pie and cherry cheesecake for dessert. For special occasions, Prime Minister Stephen Harper might also call for a cold plate with jumbo shrimp and a cheese tray with brie, Camembert and Saint-Paulin cheeses.
As the chef might note, while savouring the aroma: "It is a delicious irony, no?"
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
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A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
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The wind blows left, the wind blows right...
Harper offers opposition seats to Vimy commemoration
Juliet O’Neill, CanWest News Service
Published: Friday, March 30, 2007
OTTAWA — Opposition party members have been invited to attend the 90th anniversary ceremony of the Battle of Vimy Ridge in France next week.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper extended the invitation on Friday after opposition leaders expressed disappointment that they were not invited.
A spokesman for the prime minister said Friday evening invitations have been extended to the party whips — MPs who are responsible for ensuring MPs in each caucus attend votes and other parliamentary business.
"It’s up to each party to select who attends," spokesman Dimitri Soudas said in an e-mail.
Liberal Leader Stephane Dion and New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton had expressed disappointment through spokesmen earlier in the day, saying the Vimy Ridge ceremony is a non-partisan occasion to honour those who fought and died in the First World War battle that is often described as a coming of age for Canada.
A newly restored Canadian memorial will be rededicated during the events to which several Conservative cabinet ministers have been invited, along with such other dignitaries as the current and former governors general. Thousands of Canadian students are going, too.
About 3,500 Canadian soldiers died in the four-day assault on Vimy that began April 9, 1917, 80 times more than the number of Canadians who have died in Afghanistan over the past five years. Another 7,000 were wounded, maimed or disfigured.
© CanWest News Service 2007
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1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
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ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
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Good one on the comparisons of then and now.. very interesting ...and i wonder why a person such as the Prime Minister woulkd not think before hand and without hesitation , without any other thought offer all top ,politicians seats on the plane.. it boggles my mind.. Mr Harper you have already taiunted the celebration of what our brave souls accomplished.. i can only say shame on you and poo poo to you Sir...ranrad
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RCAF,CAF, converted RCR?,1RCR 74-77 CD: SSM (Nato);CPSM,;UN-Cyp.; UN- Golan
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Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
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