Author
|
Topic: Victoria Cross and the Unknown Soldier. (Read 1668 times)
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
 Offline
Gender: 
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Frankly, I think this is starting to stink of a political ploy designed to make the current government look good prior to an election. I would have you note, it was an arbitrary decision with no consult with the Legion and that the Queen shall give the award to PM Harper in a ceremony on Vimy Ridge. This is pretty bogus, I mean, should anybody should be receiving the award on behalf of the nation, it should be the the Governor General of Canada or the CDS. I would also have you note there were agreements made that stipulated, when the remains of the unknown soldier were repatriated, there would be no further celebrations or awards.
Personally, I'm on board with the legion this time. The VC is an individual honour earned by extraordinary valour on the battlefield. How can we bestow this honour on an unknown person with an unknown record.
What do you think?
Do you agree with the government's plan or the Legion's response.
Veterans launch salvo at VC plan
By OLIVER MOORE
Tuesday, March 6, 2007 – Page A1
TORONTO -- Veterans groups are reacting with alarm to the idea of awarding the country's most prestigious medal for valour to the Unknown Soldier, whose remains lie in Ottawa.
The Victoria Cross has been awarded to only 94 Canadians, none of them since this country assumed responsibility for the award in the early 1990s.
Sources suggest that a newly cast Victoria Cross, the first one created in Canada, will be presented by the Queen at the ceremony marking 90 years since the Battle of Vimy Ridge in France. It will be presented to Prime Minister Stephen Harper as a symbol of gratitude to the Unknown Soldier and all the lost service members he represents.
The idea has not been confirmed by the Governor-General's staff at Rideau Hall, but the Royal Canadian Legion and other veterans groups have already begun to lobby against any such award.
In a letter published in today's Globe and Mail, John Frost, Dominion president of the Legion, argues that "placed in a sacred tomb . . . the Unknown Soldier needs no other honour to emphasize his status as a hero among heroes."
Legion spokesman Bob Butt explained last night that they do not want the Unknown Soldier to be seen as anything different than the ordinary service members he is supposed to represent.
"He should not have his status elevated so that he becomes more important than the other people who served," Mr. Butt said in a telephone interview from his Ottawa-area home. "We've gone to the Governor-General, saying this shouldn't happen."
The tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Ottawa contains the remains of a man exhumed in 2000 from a British cemetery a couple of kilometres from Vimy Ridge. He was one of 1,603 unidentified Canadian victims of the famous First World War battle. His name and service record are unknown.
When the man's remains were brought to Ottawa for re-interment, Mr. Butt said, there was agreement between the government and veterans groups that he would receive no additional honour. Now, it appears, that decision has been revoked without consulting the veterans groups.
"The Unknown Soldier was brought back to Canada to be a reminder of why we serve, not to be given any awards," Mr. Butt said. "Do we need to give a medal of that level to an unknown soldier who was brought back for a totally different reason?"
The Victoria Cross is the military's highest award for valour, to be awarded for "most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."
Because of the prominence of the Victoria Cross, Mr. Butt said that his group is also concerned that awarding one to the Unknown Soldier would dilute the honour.
"You cannot take something like the Victoria Cross and make it a symbol," he said.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
Ghalsey
Veteran 500+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 610
Pro Patria
|
Mike I agree with you and them completely
Not a Individual award is right, This would be a insult to those that have been awarded in the past.
I my opinion it trivialises the V.C and all it stands for.
|
Geoff Halsey
1 RCR 1981 - 1991
Fin 831 - 1991 - 1996
CD, UN Cyprus
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Canada wants to honour the Unknown Soldier with the Victoria Cross medal, but veterans are opposed to the idea.
'[The Victoria Cross] is a very special award, it has never been given lightly,' says Bob Butt, a spokesman for the Royal Canadian Legion.'[The Victoria Cross] is a very special award, it has never been given lightly,' says Bob Butt, a spokesman for the Royal Canadian Legion.
(CBC)
The Victoria Cross is supposed to honour the absolute highest acts of military bravery, veterans say, but there are no records about the Unknown Soldier and the type of service he provided in the First World War.
The anonymous soldier's remains were buried in a stately tomb in Ottawa in 2000 to represent all Canadians who give their life in battle.
"[The Victoria Cross] is a very special award, it has never been given lightly," Bob Butt, a spokesman for the Royal Canadian Legion, told CBC News on Monday.
The medal, created in the 1856 by Queen Victoria, has been awarded to 1,350 soldiers, including 94 Canadians. The last time it went to a Canadian was in 1945.
Continue Article
Federal government sources, speaking anonymously to various media outlets this week, said the government plans to revive the Victoria Cross and the first recipient will be the Unknown Soldier.
The Globe and Mail reported Saturday that the medal, with a special Canadian design, will be presented to Prime Minister Stephen Harper by Queen Elizabeth at a ceremony in France in April. Harper will bring the medal back to Canada.
But the Canadian Legion said the Unknown Soldier is supposed to represent all veterans, not singled out with such a high award.
"As veterans will tell you, he is one of us," Butt said of the Unknown Soldier. "He's one of the people that donned the uniform. [He] went over, not for glory, not for medals, not for honours and awards.
"He went to service his country, and that's the way he should be remembered."
Decision called misguided
The National Council of Veteran Associations in Canada agrees. The organization has written a letter to Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean urging her to stop the cross from being awarded.
Butt said the government is trying to honour veterans with this latest move, but it is misguided.
"Everybody wants to honour veterans, and sometimes the way that they honour them is not exactly the way veterans themselves want to be honoured," he said.
The Victoria Cross has sometimes been criticized as being too British an award. It was not part of the new Canadian military honour system developed in 1972.
In 1993, the Queen approved the establishment of a Canadian Victoria Cross. The Globe reported Saturday that the Canadian version, which is designed and produced in Canada, will be the one awarded to the Unknown Soldier.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
Tim McCully
Veteran 200+ Member
Offline
Posts: 237
Pro Patria
|
Wasn't this medal originally made with metal from a cannon of the primean war or something like that? I must have missed the repatriation cerimony in 2000 because i was not aware of it until now. I agree that this is an individual award and should not be presented en-masse. And it does serve up a slap in the face to those who did earn it. However those who did earn it, did not act in pursuit of it. Those who earned it would tell you they were just doing their job and probably didn't even want the attention. There are other political ways of rallying the country to support the troops with out dishonouring history.
|
1RCR (82-88) B coy 6pl, (84-85) UNFICYP- BBC coy Tpt, C coy 9pl, E coy Mortars, (88-90) CFB Halifax Base Chief's Staff, CFB Trenton Refinisher Tech.(90-92). UNFICYP,CPSM
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Historical background
The VC was created by Royal Warrant on 29 January 1856, backdated to 1854 to recognise acts of valour during the Crimean War. The first award ceremony was on 26 June 1857.
It is widely believed that all VCs are cast from the bronze cascabels of two cannons of Chinese origin that were captured from the Russians at the siege of Sevastopol, except those made during the First World War when metal captured Chinese guns was also used. However, a 2006 book on the VC's history by historian John Glanfield calls the traditional account into question, arguing that it is impossible that the metal used for VCs made before 1914 to really come from the Sevastopol guns.[3] Also, the Sevastopol metal went missing between 1942 and 1945, when another source of metal was used to make five Second World War VCs.
The barrels of the cannon in question are stationed outside the Officers' Mess at the Royal Artillery Barracks at Woolwich. The remaining portion of the only remaining cascabel, weighing 358 oz (10 kg), is stored in a vault by 15 Regiment Royal Logistic Corps at Donnington, Telford. It can only be removed under armed guard.
It is estimated that approximately 80 to 85 more VCs could be cast from this source. A single company of jewellers, Hancocks of London, has been responsible for the production of every VC awarded since its inception.
In 1856 Queen Victoria laid a Victoria Cross beneath the foundation stone of Netley Hospital. When the hospital was demolished in 1966 the VC, known as "The Netley VC", was retrieved and is now on display in the Army Medical Services Museum, Ash, near Aldershot. This VC is not counted in any official records.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
Ghalsey
Veteran 500+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 610
Pro Patria
|
Close Tim
Crimean War
Someone had the happy thought that it would be fitting to take the bronze for the new medals from Russian guns captured in the Crimea. Accordingly, an engineer went off to Woolwich Barracks, where two 18-pounders were placed at his disposal. Despite the fact that these guns were clearly of antique design and inscribed with very un-Russian characters, nobody pointed out until many years had passed that the 'VC guns' were in fact Chinese, not Russian, and may or may not have been anywhere near the Crimea.
|
Geoff Halsey
1 RCR 1981 - 1991
Fin 831 - 1991 - 1996
CD, UN Cyprus
|
|
|
Tim McCully
Veteran 200+ Member
Offline
Posts: 237
Pro Patria
|
Type -o Geoff 
|
1RCR (82-88) B coy 6pl, (84-85) UNFICYP- BBC coy Tpt, C coy 9pl, E coy Mortars, (88-90) CFB Halifax Base Chief's Staff, CFB Trenton Refinisher Tech.(90-92). UNFICYP,CPSM
|
|
|
|
|
ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2135
|
Gall dang it Mike.. i am going nuts here and my girlfreiend had to take me outside on the balcony away from the computer to try to calm me down..now maybe i am a bit more affected than some ,but i do know there are 10's of thousands out there just like me...Prime Minister or not, i must and do respect the Office and try to do so as well to the individual, but where does he get off, Mr Harper, even CONSIDERING this.. i have to leave this page and come back later.. i am just too upset by this...i must say ,Mr Harper, " you have no right, whatsoever ,to even consider this idea... you must have been very poorly informed by someone... and you best give it a very quick rethink" ranrad
|
RCAF,CAF, converted RCR?,1RCR 74-77 CD: SSM (Nato);CPSM,;UN-Cyp.; UN- Golan
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Response..... more indecision....
Ottawa undecided on Victoria Cross plan, PM says
CTV.ca News Staff
Updated: Tue. Mar. 6 2007 12:10 PM ET
Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Tuesday that the government hasn't made a final decision on whether to honour the Unknown Soldier with the country's most prestigious medal for valour.
"We've actually had some mixed response from veterans' organizations -- not all opposed but some opposed, some in favour -- and the government hasn't taken a final decision on that," Harper told reporters in Toronto where he made a funding announcement.
Veterans groups are expressing opposition to the idea of honouring the Unknown Soldier with the country's most prestigious medal for valour, according to a report.
The Victoria Cross honours the highest acts of military bravery, but some veterans groups are saying the Unknown Soldier is meant to represent all veterans and shouldn't be singled out with the top honour.
The medal, which has been awarded to 1,350 soldiers, has been awarded to only 94 Canadians. The last time a Canadian was awarded the medal was in 1945.
The medal is the military's highest award for valour, to be awarded for "most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."
The Globe and Mail has reported that a newly designed Victoria Cross, the first one created in Canada, will be presented by to Prime Minister Stephen Harper by Queen Elizabeth at a ceremony in April marking 90 years since the Battle of Vimy Ridge in France.
It will be presented to the prime minister, who will bring the medal back to Canada, as a symbol of thanks to the Unknown Soldier and all the soldiers he represents.
While the honour has not been confirmed by the Governor-General's staff, the Royal Canadian Legion and other veterans groups have already begun to voice opposition.
In a letter published in Tuesday's Globe, Dominion president of the Legion John Frost contends that "placed in a sacred tomb... the Unknown Soldier needs no other honour to emphasize his status as a hero among heroes."
Veterans also don't want the Unknown Soldier to be perceived as anything different than the ordinary service members he is meant to represent, Legion spokesman Bob Butt told the newspaper, nor do they want the value of the medal to be undermined.
The Unknown Soldier's remains rest in a tomb next to the National War Memorial in Ottawa.
The soldier, whose body was exhumed in 2000 from a cemetery near Vimy Ridge, was one of 1,603 unidentified Canadian troops who died in the First World War battle. His name and service record are unknown.
When the soldier's remains were transported to Ottawa, the government and veterans groups agreed he would receive no additional honour.
But now it seems as though that decision has been repealed without consultation.
"The Unknown Soldier was brought back to Canada to be a reminder of why we serve, not to be given any awards," Butt told The Globe. "Do we need to give a medal of that level to an unknown soldier who was brought back for a totally different reason?"
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
towgunner
Gene Russo
Hero Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 91
|
Unknown Soldier, unknown record. No VC can be awarded or should be awarded. The idea behind it makes no sense whatsoever. An unknown soldier lies at rest with no ID or medals. How can the PM or the Queen bestow this award to an unknown soldier in which we know nothing about. JMHO. Pro Patria !
|
Pro Patria
Cpl Russo ER SSM Ret.
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
I do not think it should be awarded at all until some deserving soldier deems himself worthy. Which, considering the spring is coming and soon it will be green enough for the taliban to resume operations.....
The government's rush to give it to somebody just cause it exists reeks of political opportunism at it's worst.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2135
|
The governments spin doctors are at work ,and they blundered into something they did not research properly. All that guys have said here is true and there can be no reason to award THE VC to an unknown, as then THE DEED would not be known. Now, what is the requiremnets for the Canadian VC. I , myself do not know... perhaps the politicians have " left " themselves a loop hole in the wording.. for requiremnet to be awarded the medal... politicians do that all the time.. it is called expediency ,,and they seldom inform " us" , the people ... we find out later in a shocking manner.. such as this...so we need to find the "official " requiremnets to be met for awarding the Canadian VC....anyone know them? And i would think that the Unknown Soldier would be eligible for award of the standard WW1, Medals , and Victory Medal. ranrad
|
RCAF,CAF, converted RCR?,1RCR 74-77 CD: SSM (Nato);CPSM,;UN-Cyp.; UN- Golan
|
|
|
ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2135
|
I am astounded that the PMO office is trying to claim that Veterans groups are divided pro and con... i doubt that very much ,so that kind of talk from the Gov. is an OUTRIGHT LIE..shame on you in Gov...ranrad
|
RCAF,CAF, converted RCR?,1RCR 74-77 CD: SSM (Nato);CPSM,;UN-Cyp.; UN- Golan
|
|
|
Regt Adjt
Moderator
Veteran 100+ Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
I'm actually quite unperturbed whether or not the first [Canadian] VC is ceremonially awarded to the Unknown Soldier. On one hand precedents have been set by other nations for the awards of "highest honours' to the Unknowns. On the other, and with regard to the detractors of this proposal, it does make me wonder how exactly the award is diminished if this is done? Does it lessen the honour paid to a living soldier afterwards? What occurs that would materially lessen the credibility of the Victoria Cross? Would you be less proud if this happened and then one was awarded to a Royal Canadian or a PPCLI soldier?
Take the emotion out of the equation and ask what it really means. The Unknown Soldier is a symbol, of every soldier whose identity and acts are lost to us.
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Who's Cross to wear?
By CLIFF CHADDERTON
chairman, National Council of Veteran Associations
Wednesday, March 7, 2007 – Page A14
Ottawa -- The suggestion that the VC be awarded to Canada's Unknown Soldier goes against the wishes of Queen Victoria when she established the award in 1856. If the plan is to present the VC to Prime Minister Stephen Harper, the National Council of Veteran Associations considers this a not-too-discreet way of politicizing the award of the highest honour that can be bestowed on a Canadian for valour on the battlefield.
The Royal Warrant of Feb. 5, 1856, contains a provision that apparently would disqualify the proposal. "It is ordained, with a view to placing all persons on a perfectly equal footing in relation to eligibility for the Decoration, that neither rank, nor long service, nor wounds, nor any other circumstance or condition whatsoever, save the merit of conspicuous bravery, shall be held to establish a sufficient claim to the honour." It is difficult, if not impossible, to obtain any details of the service of Canada's Unknown Soldier.
The Unknown Soldier should not be elevated in any way above the status of his fallen comrades and, instead, should represent all fallen soldiers and veterans regardless of rank or status.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
Regt Adjt
Moderator
Veteran 100+ Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
The proposal is a symbolic gesture, not the award of the VC to the specific soldier lying in the Tomb in Ottawa.
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Blais
SSM (NATO Bar), CPSM, UN-Cyp, CD
Ultimate 2000+ Member
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 3213
A ROYAL CANADIAN "NEVER PASSES A FAULT"
|
Should the unknown soldier wear our new VC?
National Post
Thursday, March 08, 2007
Re: Victoria Cross plan misguided, Ottawa Told, March 7.
Why subvert the intent, reputation and significance of the Victoria Cross? For what political or social gain? How could this blatant misuse of our highest military award possibly enhance our commemoration or remembrance of all those brave Canadians who paid the ultimate sacrifice on distant battlefields in defence of this nation? This is an ill-considered gesture hatched by bureaucrats who have no appreciation of Canadian history or culture. The Prime Minister should overturn this cynical, self-serving and ignorant decision.
Major Michael Boire, assistant professor, history department, Royal Military College of Canada, Kingston, Ont.
|
1RCR 1977-79 Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR 1979-82 M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR 1982-88 Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all!
Pro Patria
|
|
|
Regt Adjt
Moderator
Veteran 100+ Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
Boire's is just one more individual opinion. This proposal is only a political maneouvre if we choose to interpret it as one. Playing the "political card" only creates an emotional response in readers that invalidates rational debate.
|
|
|
|
|
ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
Ultimate 2000+ Member
| | | |
Logged
