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Author Topic: Afgahanistan  (Read 446 times)
dave
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Afgahanistan
« on: November 17, 2006, 12:33:30 PM »
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Hey guys--I want to start a new discussion--and I hope I don't offend anyone--but I really want to hear some point of views.

The subject is Afgahnistan.  The guys are doing a tremendous job but I myself often think why are Canadians there.  It especialy came to me when I read that Rick Nolan was killed.  I knew Rick in the late 80's when we were with 3 RCR togeather.  We were'nt great friends or nothing but we got drunk a few times--and I will always remember Rick as a guy that got along with everyone.  Then I read that he was killed in a land that for me has no bearings on Canada what so ever.  Why are we fighting America's war.

Canada that has such a profound reputation as a peacekeeping nation is now--for me an aggressor in a war that can't be won.  Can someone please tell me why we are there.  I realize that 9/11 changed the world, but for me--and this sounds terrible--America had it coming.  The States armed Afgahanistan in the early 80's and said that the Russians wanted to take over the world because they were engaged in an unjust war.  But the same terrorist forces that prevail today were there also in the early 80's.

I am a proud Canadian and I don't understand why our Prime Minister backed such a fool as Bush.  When Cretien said that he did not support the war in Iraq--and I live in Germany--I was actually proud of what he had done,as most of Europe was against the war.  Now we find there were no weapons of mass destuction and this was all a vigilante action because Sadam tried to kill his "DADDY".  How would the world be different today if Gore had won.  For one thing no 40 odd Canadians would not be dead--and I often think are thier parents proud that they died for thier country?  I feel for the families the tremendous loss they have suffored and I would never say it was all in vain-but was it vital for world sucurity?

Here and now I would like to make a prediction--in the near future the war's in Afgahnistan and Iraq will be only a footnote in the history books--you can't change a people.  There are fanatics in every land but I like to believe most Moslims are like most Christians-- normal people--you can't bunch people togeather because of a few bad eggs.

Now i'm on a roll--and I am not anti USA--but this thing with Iran and North Korea is for me a farce.  The only land in the history of the world that used atom bombs is America--and when you know something about WW2- it was not neccesary. 

I read since the war in Iraq more as 60 thousand people have been killed in that country.  If Sadam was still in  charge would the results still be as bad?  He has been sentenced to death--well deserved--but would so many people have died if he was still in power.  To me Bush is as bad as Hussain--so many people dead--but they won the war--no war crimes there?  China and North Korea have the worst human rights violations as America wants eberyone to know--but what is with all the innocent people in Cuba.  Because someone is Moslim does'nt mean they are terrorists.

Back to the original topic--can someone please tell me why the guys are in Afgahanistan?

I wish them luck.  My wife said a few months ago that she was glad i'm out of the army and I said "baby I wish I was there, I would give my life for my buddies".

I wish all the RCR's, PPCLI's and VanDoos the best--you are doing a hell of a job--I wish I was in your shoes and we support you!!

PRO PATRIA
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ranrad
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Re: Afgahanistan
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 04:36:45 PM »
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Well Dave, thanks for the input and i do agree with you on most of what you say. I will hold my counsil on further ,i need to think more on it all. I do believe that a lot of Cdns and a lot of Royals likely had the same thought, as to why we are there.I am also in agreement that the war cannot be won, as it sits now anyway. and i do of course wonder if theideas why we are there are actually legitimate. Our guys are there because they are top soldiers and they do as they are ordered, but i amsure they too have their thoughts on it and must find it hardto keep the tongue still at times. I am left ,as are all with the idea we have been sold as to why we are there. And i must agree , our people have and are doing the best that can be done. Just an outs tanding effort by all. I will think more on this and come back at another time, thanks for the post, ranrad
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MLivingstone
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Re: Afgahanistan
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2006, 06:59:52 AM »
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I in some ways also agree I was a good friend of Ricks we went through basic in Cornwallis together and also RCR Battleschool. the man was one of the warmest people you could ever meet would give you the shirt off of his back if need be. He served both his country and fellow men well. The amount of times I look at platoon and coy photos, then turn to the back of my pic to see his writing good luck in 3 RCR with his signature. When I heard of his passing that is really when it hit home I just stared at the tv and told my wife I once served with this man in service, all I could think of was what a HUGE loss. Rick may you forever find peace and God Bless the Largest sacrifice ever your life. Pro Patria 
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Glock17
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Re: Afgahanistan
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 09:38:07 AM »
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Here is what the Ruxted Group suggests Mr. Harper, as Head of Government should say:

Mr. Speaker, I rise today because Canadians are confused and distressed by our military operations in Afghanistan. We, this parliament, sent our soldiers there with what we thought was a clear mission. Here is what we say to Canadians on our Foreign Affairs web site:

Canada is in Afghanistan today to –

• help Afghanistan rebuild;
• defend our national interests; and
• ensure Canadian leadership in world affairs.

That is what we have been saying since we started in Afghanistan nearly five years ago. Clearly some Members of Parliament and some Canadians do not understand or do not agree.

It has been suggested that our soldiers are winning on the battlefield while the government is losing the war in the nation’s cable television system. We will try, today, to explain to Members of Parliament and to the people of Canada why we are in Afghanistan and why we need to stay the course.

First, Canadians ask: Are we fighting a war or trying to help the Afghan people to rebuild their country?

We answer: Both. Reconstruction is inadequate as long as there is an insurrection that will destroy our work as quickly as we produce it. Part of the rebuilding is capacity building. We are building the capacity of the Afghan government to fight its own battles & maintain its own security. However, until that capacity is built we need to carry a heavy load in the fight.

Second, Canadians ask: Is this mission winnable?

We answer: Yes, but the process is likely as long as a peacekeeping mission. Several years of a massive international military effort transitioning to many years of limited international military aid and finally to an all Afghan show. International humanitarian efforts follow a similar pattern but may even be required longer.

But, we should not expect to "win" anytime soon in the sense of being able to declare victory. What we can do is prevent the Government of Afghanistan from losing.

Here is an analogy: Afghanistan is like a boat that is badly damaged after a storm - 30 years of civil strife, brutal occupation, and fundamentalist oppression have damaged what was once a stable and peaceful country under a constitutional monarchy. Like a damaged ship, Afghanistan is in danger of sinking back into the failed state it once was unless it gets the help it needs. This is where Canada and its NATO allies come in. There are big holes in the boat down below that are letting the water in. Our military forces are bailing water. The Canadian public, media and some politicians are watching this and wondering why we don't just plug the holes. We are, but if we stop bailing the boat will sink. The military have to keep bailing long enough for some other folks to get to the business of patching the holes. Those other people are other government departments, non-governmental agencies and the elected Government of Afghanistan, including the Afghan National Security Forces. They need time, and the military are buying that time.

This is difficult because Afghanistan has not had a history of a strong central government. Our goal, in the Kandahar region, is to fight the Taliban and get the Afghan National Army and police stood up so they can provide security for the central government and the people. The Government of Afghanistan is a legitimate government: it was elected in UN supervised elections which were much more free and fair than some that are held in many states which are not accused of having ‘failed’.

Many Canadians say that the forces of history are against us: The West has never fared too well in Afghanistan - ever. In addition, Western conventional forces have never had much success in such conflicts. These are both good points, points which we must take into account as we, with our allies, make plans for helping the Afghan people to help themselves. That fact is that what we are doing in Afghanistan is fundamentally different from what Alexander the Great tried 2,500 years ago and what the Soviets tried in our lifetime: we are there to defend Afghanistan, not to conquer it. We are protecting the Afghan people from the forces of barbarism so that they can decide, for themselves, how they want to run their own country. When we say we are helping the Afghan people to rebuild, we do not mean that we expect a liberal democracy to spring up, overnight. Afghanistan is a very conservative society with many problems which the Afghan people will need to work through – perhaps with some help from us, if they ask for it.

We need to focus on our primary aim in Afghanistan: to defend our national interests.

What are they?

The first duty of this government is to protect Canada. There are people in this world who want to hurt Canada and Canadians. They want to do that in order to force us to bow to their will. We need to prevent those attacks and the best way to do that is to make it harder and harder for radical, barbaric, terrorist movements to find a secure base from which they can mount attacks on us. That is what a Taliban government in Afghanistan provided for al Qaeda: a secure base. That is what a Taliban government will do again – if we allow them to regain power. Helping the legitimate, elected Government of Afghanistan defeat the Taliban insurgency is the key. It is in our national interests to have a stable, free Afghanistan which can, at its own pace, work its way into the modern, connected world.

Some people want Canadians to shift from fighting to development. There is a lot of good development work being done in Afghanistan, including by Canadians in Kandahar province; it cannot go any farther or faster until the Taliban insurgency is suppressed. The aid workers are good, brave, committed people but we cannot ask them to build schools and dig wells when the likely outcome is that they will be executed – beheaded – for their efforts. That’s what our soldiers are doing, right now: securing the province so that civilian aid workers can go about their business.

Finally, some Canadians ask: why Canada? Why must our best young people die? A distinguished Member of Parliament, Michael Ignatieff put it well:

"This is an agonizing mission for Canadians but it's a mission that amounts to a moral promise … It's a promise in which Canada said 'We're going to help Afghans get their country back on its feet.' And the Canada I love and the Canada I respect always keeps its promises." This is the same promise we make to countries into which we deploy peacekeepers, and we would not sink so low as to turn our backs on those countries at the moments they need us most. We must now deliver on this promise to Afghanistan.

There are 37 countries in the UN mandated International Security Assistance Force. Many are NATO members and NATO, at the UN’s behest, provides the military superstructure. Not all are ready or able to take on the difficult, dangerous and too often deadly task of finding, fighting and defeating the Taliban. Canada has the finest soldiers in the world. They are tough, superbly disciplined, highly trained, well led and adequately equipped – they need more and better kit and their government is rushing more, better equipment to them. They can fight and win against the Taliban. We are fighting because we are one of the world’s leading nations; because we can do the job. We Canadians want to make a difference in the world, we want to be peacemakers, above all we want to be leaders. That’s what we are doing in Kandahar: we are making peace, we are leading, by example. Leadership is costly. Canadians – our very best Canadians – are paying a high price. We must never forget that those very best Canadians are the ones marching under the flag, or lying beneath it.

Mr. Speaker, words are inadequate for the task of expressing our sorrow to the children and spouses, parents and friends of those who have died in our nation’s service. Perhaps, when time has soothed the raw wounds of grief those widows, widowers and children, parents and friends will find that their sorrow is balanced with pride in the knowledge that each of our war dead helped make Canada a better place and a leader amongst the nations of the world.

For original text, please follow the link   http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/24-The-Afghanistan-Debate.html
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ranrad
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Re: Afgahanistan
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 11:14:00 AM »
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Good report here Dave. And i agree with the meaning of the text, the maening of what this is all about. Should we maintain our committment as such i too believe we, and all Afghans will succeed and have a country ,a home ,hey can be proud of , feel fre in and enjoy as God meant our lives to be. I acnnot say enough about our people over there and the tremendous job they have done and continue to do. I think history writers will look very well on this era and the goodness and decency of our people for other people trying for a better life, a decent ,free life.I think of the families and friends of people we have  lost there and people who have been wounded and people who still serve , and i feel that they too are serving , silently , alongside their sons and daughters.... and i thank you for YOUR sacrifices, for they are the largest one can give....i wish you all the Best Christmas and New Year... ranrad
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Young Ken
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Re: Afgahanistan (Perspective)
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 10:12:18 AM »
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Although I can sympathize with what most of you have been saying; I can only put it to you this way.

It is not the place of the soldier to choose the battle field nor is it their place to choose which war or country that they will do these battles in. Most Soldiers know this when they join the Military and I would suppose that most people who were never in the military (like the press) may not be able to understand this and so they carry on with stories which have very little meaning or function to the soldier, except to demoralize them.

The old fraise, “Ours is not to question why. Ours is but to do and die.” Still rings true today as every soldier who has ever served knows full well.

One thing to remember is that because the soldier has little if any choice in the where or who his enemies’ are, we as Canadians need to support them even more so when the general view is that they may be dieing for nothing, as some suggest.

Supporting our troops in no way means that you agree with Ottawa’s decision to send them there in the first place, it isn’t political support and it sure as heck isn’t an act of indorsing any kind of war in the first place.

Supporting our Military while they are in combat both in thought and deed, is the very least an old soldier can do for the troops and taking care of the troops who are hurt when they arrive back home should be the focus of all Canadians as well as Ottawa.

Because of what I have mentioned above I would like to show how little Ottawa has done for our wounded soldiers in the recent past.

(1)   Suffield Volunteers’, - Sprayed with Mustard gas and nerve agents, yet for over 60 years weren’t even recognized as having served their country during a time of war.
(2)   Gagetown Victims – Sprayed with Agents White, Purple and Orange for 28 tears and lied to about it for 50, hundreds dead and thousands still sick and dieing, yet despite all of the international evidence, Ottawa still insists that no one should have been affected.
(3)   Golf War syndrome, - Many have it and just as many have been ignored.
(4)   There are many others such as the depleted uranium, WW II A Bomb tests, Cold war radiation tests, scientific medicine tests on soldiers in the north, hundreds of unknown (but believed) immunization shots before going overseas and the list goes on

What Ottawa needs to do and what Canadians should demand of our Government is that Vets be treated with dignity and respect and if or when the time comes that they are harmed by what Ottawa has decided to do to or demanded of them, that Ottawa should come clean and do the right thing by our men/women in uniform.

I guess what I am asking from Ottawa is that they like the rest of Canada, because the military actually has no say in the matter they support our troops without reservations, after they become too sick or injured to soldier on as well as when they can do Ottawa’s biding.

In short Ottawa has been killing soldiers here in Canada as fast if not faster then when they are in the field of war. At least in Afghanistan the troops know who the enemy is supposed to be which in some ways is far better then many of the groups I spoke above who were never allowed to know.

Cpl. Kenneth H. Young CD (Ret'd).
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Ken Young

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ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
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Re: Afgahanistan
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 01:48:59 PM »
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Well ,Ken , as you know i agree with you on most if not all your statements/reports on thr sie, i do not even know you ,but i know these things to be true purely by experience ,a lot pesrsonal;, some thru close friends... you know ,those guys you did and would trust with your life... the hardest thing i have to swallow is seeing veterans affairs turn down 90% of claimants... and that fact to me ,should have already attracted the close scrutiny of the Auditor Gen. ... why it has not boggles my mind. I do know that the Aud Gen said two years ago that her dept only "gets '" to see1/6 of the Fed books each year... i have no idea where that no. comes from... are there only 6 books?? are there 6 sets of books?? I do not know.... but getting to the Veteran and dealings ,i have found out ,for fact ,over the past 20 yrs... because i was affected and have an interest, not because i have an axe to grind....these are m y buddies out there ,who put and do pout themselves on the linne fro all Cdns every day... it realy galls me to listen to the Fed Gov ,"advertise" to the peopl thru the medias of how much they do for veterans, while the facts. the truth shows the EXACT opposite. I will say to all, and especially those still serving that you make sure you documant and get a copy of everything that happens to you... EVERYTHING.... because without it you will get NO HELP... because YOU HAVE TO PROVE EVERYTHING... AND ANY MISTAE YOU MAKE WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU BY VETERANS AFFAIRS...AND YOU WILL MAKE MISTAKES.. after all ,most of us are NOT lawyers well versed in the ins and outs of Vet Aff. ...I do not know what has become of the CDN LAW, which stated that ' THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, IF ANY, MUST BE GIVEN TO THE VETERAN".... I CANNOT GET AN ANSWER TO THAT.. IT SEEMS THE mIN oF vET aFF HAS BEEN EFFECTIVLY .." mUZZLED"  AND HAS NO TIME FOR VETERANS ANYMORE. Vet Aff ,i efeel ,and i am only 1 of thousands who feel this, have become an emplyment agency , hiring people to look after the best interest s of veterans, and i must say most i know ,do their best, and it takes about 8-10 yrs before they know enough to realize THEY are/ have been spinning their wheels , and many become very disgruntled..and quit... now we all know that gov has funnny wheel son the machine, but none of us can really deal effectively with them... and we only have a chance as an organized group able to fund good legal advice... and even that is difficult.. The Agent Prange tragedy is one of them.. but it still has a hance to end fair and right....i  hope you all ,esp those still serving become very dilligent with keeping copies of your own medical problems,...these docs, however simple are the Vet Aff BIble....ranrad
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Re: Afgahanistan
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 07:17:54 PM »
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Dave
I understand what you are saying. As a former dependant and a former military wife I understand the aspect of the "..do.and die" thing but now as a civilian having been away from the military for so long it is difficult not to see the other side. We are surrounded by yellow ribbons here and support our troops magnetic stickers for our bumpers but I personally cannot bring myself to purchase these things because I keep thinking just wait til they come home..wait until the excitement is over and everything goes back to "normal" and wait for their out bursts of rage and paranoia and feeling of hopelessness. It will come and hopefully by then the VA will be better prepared them. To all those serving in Afghanistan , please except my wishes to you all that you remain safe and return home soon.
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