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Jerry Robertson
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WW2 in Italy
« on: September 25, 2006, 02:22:42 PM »
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I have just finished reading a book about the only Canadian soldeir to be executed during WW2. He was from the Hasty Pees, his name was Harold Pringle. He was found guilty of murdering a a fella from the Cape Breton Highlanders. He was part of a gang called the Sailor Gang. There were 2 Canadians, a couple of Brits and 1 American in it. Mainly robbing people, places and black marketeering typse stuff was what they were invloved in. They were also all deserters. There was another larger gand known as the Lane Gang. The were made up of about 50 guys from every army in Italy including some German deserters.

My point is this. Since talking with my wifes Uncle who was in the Cape Breton Highlanders of the 5th Div and reading George Burrows posts I find the Italion capaign to be a very very different war from the one fought in NW Europe. My wifes Uncle said as much. He said you would take a hill or a mountain and then you had a valley and anothe mountain to take which meant more and more casualties. He said when he got to France after Italy his regiment couldnt believe they actually got to ride in trucks to the war. Collectively, he said, the Cape Breton Highlanders thought now this is the way to fight a war.

I would like to hear what you have to say about this George and if you heard of the 2 gangs I previously mentioned. The book also stated that deserters from all allied nations in Italy numbered in the thousands.

When I was in Holland last year for the 60th VE Day I got to ride in a half track with some vets from Italy, one of whom was PPCLI. I called him a D Day Dodger and he and his buddies cheered and said they were and still are proud of that nickname for they saw 22 months of combat. We had some good laughs at that one as well as a few beer. Driving thru the Dutch Villages and countryside in a half track, smoking a cigar with some vets.......it just dont git any better!

Take care all,
Jerry "Robbie" Robertson
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george burrows
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2006, 07:31:57 AM »
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to JIM ROBERTSON"
No Jim I did not hear of the so called GANG  in the Hasty P's but did hear of the execution of the one soldier there.
Jim, your wifes uncle is absolutely correct in his summation of the Italian Campaigne. It was a very tough campaigne in that as you point out it was a matter of capturing one mountain at a time following a very dangerous walk down through the valleys below, because if Jerry had not retreated, and was waiting for you on the next mountain, he had  firing ADVantage and visibility looking down on us. This is where we got the FAMOUS NAME
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Jerry Robertson
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2006, 02:27:14 PM »
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I think the name is a badge of honour George. But please do keep the stories coming bud. They are great. I also like them because they are from a soldier who was there versus an historian or General writing about the movements of a division or regiment and how they only suffered minimum casualties. Tell the rifle platoons that 4 or 5 from their platoon is only minimum! So keep em coming George.
Jerry Robertson
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rcrgeomar@sympatico.ca
Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2006, 11:27:15 AM »
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Thanks Jerry:  Glad you enjoyed the item.  Sorry for my tardiness in replying. Since I last wrote that ,I have been to Edmonton for a week plus a few days in London ,Ont. . Just got home now. will try to dig up more for you and the others.
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 07:54:53 AM »
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To Jerry Robertson:  In my last answer to your input re Italy ww 2, I finished off the paragraph  with the phrase "THATS WHAT MADE US FAMOUS"  Being in a hurry I left out the real intended name we became famous for at that point in time which  was given to us by the Germans then . This phrase was  ' THE RED PATCH DEVILS" and was given to us because we would not lye down under ennemy fire and stay there like they had found other troops did.  Thought you might like to know this.

Also Jiim, Currently I hear so much about Pay salaries for the forces which amount to ( if I hear correctly) upwards of $6,000.00per year  per Privaten on overseas duty in Afghanistan with  DANGER PAY INCLUDED. All I can say to that is WOW!!!!!!!!!

WHEN I WAS IN THE ARMY IN 1940, my pay started at $1.20 PER DAY, and when I went overseas to England my DANGER PAY WAS ADDED  to that in the AMOUNT .10 cents per day for a grand total of $1.30 per day.  Of course we did not have to pay board , taxes etc as they do now.We got everything for free.  How times change eh?Huh
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Mike Blais
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2006, 08:19:59 AM »
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Some background information on the Red Patched Devils....






15 July 1943... The British Eighth Army's drive stalled in the face of the stubborn and skilful German defence, Montgomery had to turn to the US 7th Army for help, only to discover that most of the Americans had gone off in the opposite direction. This forced the Eighth Army into a gruelling campaign in adverse conditions against a determined and resourceful enemy in easily defended terrain. His only chance to salvage success lay with the one formation of his army that had not fought in the desert, the First Canadian Division. Moreover, he was pinning the Eighth Army's hopes on the efforts of a single untried division of Canadians. Outside Vizzini, the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment (Hasty P's) passed through the Royal Canadian Regiment as the First Brigade led the way to the paved Route 124, the infantry riding in lorries or on tanks of the Three River Regiment. The next major town was Grammichele, ten miles from Vizzini. The Hasty P's and the Three River tanks ran right into the German ambush.....

16 July 1943... The British Eighth Army advanced had stalled on the edge of the Catania plain and General Montgomery had instructed General Leese of XXX Corps to "Drive the Canadians on Hard!". The First Canadian Division began their eastward advance on Caltagirone with the 48th Highlanders proceeding cross-country. Lt-Colonel Jefferson's Loyal Edmonton Regiment and a Squadron of tanks from the Three Rivers Regiment formed the vanguard, headed for the next large town, Piazza Armerina. Just beyond San Michele di Ganzeria, Route 124 joined the Gela-Enna highway; Route 117, the highway had been hijacked from the Americans. The Loyal Eddies had smooth sailing until noon when three miles south of Piazza Armerina they ran into elements of the 15th Panzer Grenadier Division.....

18 July 1943... While RCR clung tenaciously to the roadside a mere half-mile south of the town, Brigadier Graham had committed his remaining battalion. He sent the 48th Highlanders to take Valguarnera by making a long right hook. The Toronto regiment was to launch its final approach on Valguarnera from a ridge two-miles south of the town, but when the Highlanders arrived they found the ridge to be strongly held by the Germans. Enemy snipers and machine-gunners pinned down the Toronto infantrymen for long minutes, until an English-born corporal took matters into his own hands.....

22 July 1943... Unlike Assoro, there was no unguarded backdoor, Leonforte had to be attacked frontally. And the town was held in strength by tanks and troops from the 104th Panzer Grenadier Regiment. A savage street battle ensued and all four Edmonton rifle companies were soon involved. With neither artillery support nor anti-tank guns, the Eddies were faced with the choice of remaining in Leonforte and being wiped out, or withdrawing to safety. The battalion commander Jim Jefferson made up his mind quickly ordering his embattled companies to pull out of Leonforte under small arms covering fire provided by the Seaforth Highlanders. At Second Brigade HQ, a despondent Brigadier-General Chris Vokes received a ten-year-old Italian boy named Antonio Guiseppe, who dodging bullets, shells and German patrols made his way to the Canadian lines to pass a message from Jefferson. Vokes acted decisively, organizing a flying column of troops from the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, four Shermans from the Three Rivers Regiment and four 6-pounders from the 90th AT-Battery and led by a PPCLI Company commander, Captain Rowan Coleman.....

24 July 1943... The Second Brigade, which was to support the First Brigade had difficulty moving into position around Assoro and when patrols from the divisional reconnaissance unit, the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards encountered heavy fire on Route 117 near Nissoria. At noon, he signalled a 24-hour postponement in favour of a set-piece attack, supported by every available artillery piece. Under Simmonds' plan, The Royal Canadian Regiment would attack at 1500 hours advancing behind a barrage which would advance at a rate of a hundred yards every two minutes. Half-mile ahead, a smoke screen 2,000 yards long would precede the attackers and guided Kittyhawk fighter-bombers assigned to bomb and strafe targets along the road, while six squadrons of medium bombers plastered Agria and environs. A total of 5 field regiments and 2 medium regiments, over 150 guns would support one battalion.....

2 August 1943... It fell to the Canadian troops to launch the beginning of the end of the Sicilian campaign. Temporarily attached to the British 78th Division, the Canadian Third Infantry Brigade was to mount a preliminary operation near the village of Catenanuova. The West Nova Scotia Regiment played a key role in the capture of Catenanuova. After the Royal 22nd Regiment captured Monte Scalpello, a razorback ridge towering 3,000 feet over the valley of the dry Dittaino. The 3rd Brigade had done its job, giving the 78th Division a springboard for its attack towards Centuripe. And while casualties had been light tougher times were in store for the brigade and particularly for the West Novas. While the 78th struck out for Centuripe northwest of Catenanuova, the 3rd Brigade moved cross-country to fill the narrowing gap between the 78th and the First Canadian Division further north. German prisoners warned that the paratroopers of the 3rd Fallschirmjäger Regiment held the hill.....

4 August 1943... With the fall of Regalbuto, the Canadians had unknowingly entered the final phase of operations in Sicilian campaign. Three notable features had to seized along the way to Adrano, Hill 736, Monte Revisotto and Monte Seggio. The Loyal Eddies loaded up their ammunition, food and water as well as the 3-inch mortars and medium machine-guns of the supporting Saskatoon Light Infantry on to pack mules and headed into dry river valley. The battalion spent the nex t four days moving into position for the assault on Hill 736, clashing several times with German outposts cleverly concealed in the wilderness terrain. Major Archie Donald led the Loyal Edmontons, supported by 25-pounders from the 3rd Canadian Field Regiment, up the hill under heavy machine-gun and mortar fire.....

5 August 1943... The loss of Agria, Regalbuto and Centruipe to XXX Corps had convinced the Germans to abandon their endangered defences in front of Catania and to withdraw into the main defensive position around the foot of Etna. Montgomery urged XXX Corps to step up its efforts to capture Adrano, the loss of which would disrupt the German defence. 4 August, the 78th Division continued its push northwards across the Salso and Simeto rivers via Route 121, while the Canadians were to capture Monte Revisotto and Monte Seggio, then force their way through the valley of the Salso. Major-General Guy Simmonds saw one of the rare opportunities to properly utilize tanks.....
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 08:23:34 AM by Mike Blais » Report to moderator   Logged

1RCR  1977-79  Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR  1979-82  M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR  1982-88  Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all! 

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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2006, 03:05:47 PM »
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Hi George

All I can say is WOW. When I was in 1961 our pay was $2.92 a day. WOW. They deserve every cent!!!!!!!!!

Jim

Also Jiim, Currently I hear so much about Pay salaries for the forces which amount to ( if I hear correctly) upwards of $6,000.00per year  per Privaten on overseas duty in Afghanistan with  DANGER PAY INCLUDED. All I can say to that is WOW!!!!!!!!!

WHEN I WAS IN THE ARMY IN 1940, my pay started at $1.20 PER DAY, and when I went overseas to England my DANGER PAY WAS ADDED  to that in the AMOUNT .10 cents per day for a grand total of $1.30 per day.  Of course we did not have to pay board , taxes etc as they do now.We got everything for free.  How times change eh?
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george burrows
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 07:14:18 AM »
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Thank  you Mike for the excellent article on our WW2 campaign.
Believe it or not , as I re-read some of it I could still feel myself involved in the actual action taking place   Believe it or it is a feelieng that never leaves you. In the articles you mention we were sweating under a 114 degree heat, we could not drink any water unless it had MEPACRIN tablets in for purification , which we carried with us. We got our water out of ditches or streams etc. However to minamize this procedure, we started to fill our water bottles with WINE. There was nothing more pure than this. I still enjoy wine to this day.We wore summer kit uniforms, had skinned legs and knees as well as torn skin on our hands and arms. We crawled over rocky cover, through Limestone  dust up to our shoulders etc, it was a pretty rough go . We would sweat all day and freeze all night, sleeping under Gas capes to try and keep reasonably warm, however, in the morning we would be all damp from the moisture of our breathing under the cape all ight.  It is amazing what the human body can endure when it has too. 
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Mike Blais
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 08:21:53 AM »
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Well, George, I thought immediately of you when I stumbled across the site and started reading the image's accompanying description. You have certainly put a human touch to the tale, of this there is no doubt. I believe you when you say the feeling never leaves, I can sense the intensity of the moment through your words and all to apt descriptions of life on the pointy end of the stick. You must be shocked at the transformation between your time and the lads fighting in Afghanistan today. The differences in kit and uniform alone are remarkable in the sence that they now fight in full combat clothing with kneepads and gloves. I can't imagine waging full scale combat in a pair of shorts, shoes, socks and a short sleeved shirt, not in such a harsh environment. You must have been scraped up pretty bad just trying to stay alive let alone fight. Anyhow, the more I read about your adventures, George, the more I am inclined to salute you!

Pro Patria, sir!

Mike.



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1RCR  1977-79  Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR  1979-82  M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR  1982-88  Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all! 

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rcrgeomar@sympatico.ca
Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2006, 08:37:25 AM »
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I am very pleased to hear of the excellent equipment changes that have taken place. It is long over due.
Thanks Mike for those kind words. As you say things sure have changed since our day.Thank the good Lord for that.

Speaking of articles Mike , if you want a real good read,  Try and get a copy of THE D DAY DODGERS. It tis the best WW 2 book I have ever read . The aurthor is deceased now, but he wrote a completely unbiased book and more in soldiers language  than any other writer. He outlines each regiments activities in each battle mentioned. I do not know whether the Libraries have it or not. I do know they re publish it again from time to time. 
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2006, 11:23:16 AM »
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Hi George and all; I had to come back and read your latest entry again and thanks again for posting these. I of course have my own special interest ,being a Cdn Military history buff, and have been very fortunate especially in the past about 10 yrs to be able to learn the 'real" history ,as i like to think of it, at the soldiers level. the  level where history is really made.And ,yes, i did manage to grab a copy of the Dodgers, as you guys called youreselves , as a sort of toingue in cheek way of letting the world know that "hey, we did our part too.. D Day was not the only major thrust , and  indeed , as we are now learning  the Siclily , Italy Campaign was every bit as important battle, if not more important , if one could really place a more important label on any particular battle, etc.. they were all very important. And yes, i agree that book is s very good read anbd do recommend it to every one if they can some how get their hands on a copy....I am very fortunate here in Vernon to have a used book dealer of the old school ,who has a strong net of clients bringing all kinds of books to him steadily. I make it a point to visit avery month and usually find 4 to 6 books on military history, some of which are collectibles, and at very reasonable prices.Anyone interested out there should lok around where they live, there may be a good dealer, who knows their stuff and it does take a lot of knowledge on their part to be able to know what to look for and get their "nets" working...but these people are out there, and usually are very reasonable with their pricing.. and they have a unique  slant on history, much can be learned from them just by chatting, and they are usually very liberal in passing on what they know.....it is also interesting to see the different pay scales over the years andnow special allowances for risk, hardship etc.. all in comparison to your rate of .10 cents a day in WW2.. thanks George , Mike and Jim for your inputs here, ranrad 
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2006, 11:49:36 AM »
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The D Day Dodgers, eh? I will be certain to check out the library next time I'm in, George. You will probably recall this tune... I took the liberety of including the Candian changes that were in the footnotes into the song, hopefully, I did not mess it up.


The Ballad of the D-Day Dodgers

We're the D-Day Dodgers out in Italy -
Always on the vino, always on the spree.
Eighth Army scroungers and their tanks
We live in Rome - among the Yanks.
We are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.

We landed at Pachino, a holiday with pay
Jerry brought a band out, to cheer us on our way
Showed us the sights, and gave us tea
We all sang songs, the beer was free
We kissed all the girls in Napoli.
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.

The Moro and Ortona were taken in our stride.
We didn't have to fight there. We just went for the ride.
Anzio and Sangro were a farce, we did fuck all, sat on our arse
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.

On our way to Florence we had a lovely time.
We ran a bus to Rimini right throught the Gothic Line.
On to Bologna we did go.
Then we went bathing in the Po.
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.

Once we had a blue light that we were going home
Back to dear old Blighty, never more to roam.
Then somebody said in France you'll fight.
We said never mind, we'll just sit tight,
The windy D-Day Dodgers, out in Sunny Italy.

Now Lady Astor, get a load of this.
Don't stand up on a platform and talk a load of piss.
You're the nation's sweetheart, the nation's pride
But we think your bloody big mouth is far too wide.
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, out in Sunny Italy.

When you look 'round the mountains, through the mud and rain
You'll find the scattered crosses, some which bear no name.
Heartbreak, and toil and suffering gone
The boys beneath them slumber on
They were the D-Day Dodgers, who'll stay in Italy.

So listen all you people, over land and foam
Even thought we've parted, our hearts are close to home.
When we return we hope you'll say
"You did your little bit, thought far away
All of the D-Day Dodgers, way out there in Italy."

The last verse to be sung with vini on your lips and tears in your eyes.


    * D-Day Dodgers: The Canadians In Italy 1943-45]] by Daniel G. Dancocks sketches the history of Canadian military participation in the Italian Campaign.
    * War Story D-Day Dodgers by Garth Ennis and John Higgins was a graphic novel published in 2001 by Vertigo DC Comics.
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1RCR  1977-79  Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR  1979-82  M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR  1982-88  Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all! 

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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2006, 12:11:52 PM »
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George, I think you any others who are interested in the history of the D Day Dodgers might be interested in this link. Scroll to the bottom of the page and watch the musical rendition. It is the Canadian version and is accompanied by a pretty good photo collage.

http://www.waramps.ca/military/photos/dodgers.html
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1RCR  1977-79  Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR  1979-82  M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR  1982-88  Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all! 

Pro Patria
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2006, 12:29:09 PM »
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Hi Mike: 
  Thanks for your entry of the THE D DAY DODGERS SONG. I think the additions/ changes etc aqre a good addition. I must confess though that this is the first time I have ever read this version. I like it though so thanks again.
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2006, 12:52:27 PM »
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Sometimes songs don't read as good as they sing!  Wink  Maybe I screwed it up, the foot notes were pretty vague as the tune was originally Brit in verse and changed, or so it noted, to a more Canadian flavour by the lads on the ground. I will confirm through my travels and post the most accurate one.

I must say, they have some pretty interesting stuff on the net. CBC in particular has an excellent audio and video vault that is freely available.

The link Ive included will help you get there and ficuses on an evening Royal Canadians shall forever remember as the origin of the Ortona Toast. Christmas Eve, 1943.... just click to play. Of course, the correspondent was not where The RCR were but, considering it was broadcast December 24, at Christmas Eve, it certainly sets the tone...

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-1471-9856/conflict_war/italian_campaign/clip4


This should take you to the general overview relating to the italian Campaign and the archival broadcasts CBC has. 

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-1471/conflict_war/italian_campaign/

 

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1RCR  1977-79  Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR  1979-82  M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR  1982-88  Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all! 

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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2006, 07:09:03 PM »
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Damn, just flicked on the history channel and the have an hour show on Ortona. Just interviewed Strome Galloway.... sorry bout the lack of warning, replays october 17, 0600...
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1RCR  1977-79  Depot (Italy PL), B Coy, Mortars, Pioneers, D Coy (CFB London)
3RCR  1979-82  M Coy, Pipes & Drums, Sigs, Mortars. (CFB Baden-Soellingen)
1RCR  1982-88  Mortars. Dukes, Cyprus-Welfare NCO 84-85, Injured, WO&Sgts Mess, (CFB London)
1988-92 Med-remuster to HELL/ 35 DU, CFB Baden
1992 Medical release. God Bless you all! 

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ranrad
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Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2006, 10:43:52 PM »
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Hi Mike and all: Hey some really good stuff there Mike, thanks much, ranrad
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rcrgeomar@sympatico.ca
Re: WW2 in Italy
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2006, 05:11:16 PM »
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Hey Ranrad. Glad you were able to secure a copy of  the D DAY DODGERAS BOOK. these are a very scarce item. I know you will enjoy it . I have read it twice. and enjoyed it both times very, very much. If anyone wants the order number for it to check if the publisher is doing another printing, let me know and I will post  it for you. There are two mistakes in the book by the author. The first one refers to  THE RCR GIVING SUPPORT OT THE Hasty P's, caught behind German lines up high on a special piece of land about 30  to 40 feet high, They had run out of ammo and food. C company was used as the fighter guard while D company carried in both food and ammo supplies to them. The author states that we took the materials in, dropped at the base of the mount where tjhe Hasty P's were and left PDQ. This is incorrect. D company carried these packs in ( I was one of them) and we went to the site, dropped HALF OF THE FOOD ITEMS AT BASE, CLIMBED UP TO THE TOP OF THE MOUNT, DROPPED OFF THE BALANCE, and looked over the edge  down on the Germans lines, very carefully. We had to lay on our stomach to see over the edge because they knew the Hasty P's were there and had one man constantly observe  the site with binnoculars. If they saw you, they would fire at you. The Hasty P's said they would bring up the balance of supplies. Each pack was over 40 lbs. and it was a long carry in and a loang way out at near daybreak behind enemy lines.
Thought you might like to know this little bit of trivia,


« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 05:16:07 PM by george burrows » Report to moderator   Logged
ranrad
Ron [Andy] Andrews
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